What could God do?
by Jeremy Langill on Sep.07, 2009, under Problem of Evil, Sunday Nights, Thoughts
Last night we spent a considerable amount of time discussing what God could do, specifically as it relates to the problem of evil in the world. For most Christians, they are fairly comfortable with the idea that God is not only the creator and author of all things, but knows what will happen to each of us (perfectly) and the choices that we will make. Naturally, this line of thinking can lead us to some important philosophical issues, specifically that if God is all powerful and knows all things then isn’t God, at the end of the picture, at least responsible for the problem of evil.
Let us consider the following thought:
God (by God’s very nature) can do whatever God wants to do.
God, being all powerful, creates the world that we live in.
Let’s stop here for a moment. I realize that many thinkers disagree on these characteristics of God, but for the sake of the argument, let’s assume that the vast majority of Christians think about God this way, having little or no training in different theological perspectives that view the very nature of God differently.
The question that quickly comes up for me is, if God could create in any way possible, why did God create the world in the way that God did? For example, it is possible to conceive of a creation where there was no “original” sin, where the world never existed as “fallen”, where there existed none of the conceptual frameworks and boundaries that are common to our Christian understanding (i.e., freewill, grace, mercy, etc.). It is possible to conceive of a world where God simply created us perfectly, free from the issues that disturb us today.
On this picture, wouldn’t God be ultimately responsible for the evil that exists in the world today? To be sure, some would instantly argue with me, that it is precisely because God did not create that perfect world that we can know that God “values” the qualities of our life (grace, mercy, freewill) that we define as key components of our relationship with God. However, God only “values” (if we can even say that we know that God values anything from us at all) those things that we understand in this creative construct. In other words, if we lived in the perfect world mentioned previously then we would not understand God in the way that we understand God now–the rules of the game, so to speak, would be entirely different. The language and grammar of our very existence would not be the same. Comparing what we think God values of us in this world to what we think God would value of us in a different creative construct would be like comparing apples to oranges. Just because we define our existence now by a certain set of terms does not mean that we would do the same thing had the world been created entirely different.
That God created the world that God did does not mean God could not have created it differently, since by our earlier definition, God’s creative ability is unrestricted and unfettered. Our created status only has significance insofar as it is wholly dependent on God as its source. We may still ask, why didn’t the source create differently? The fact that we value this current existence says nothing about whether or not God could have done it differently or even values it in the same way that we do.
Thus, the problem still exists–if God could have created the world differently then, logically speaking, God could have created a world just as meaningful as the one we live in now, only without the evil, sin, and suffering we experience now–the question still remains as to why God did not do this.
There are, by the way, philosophical arguments which address this very question. Some have argued that this creation is in fact the “best of all possible worlds” while others have said we need to change our notions of the character and creative qualities of God. This post is far too long to go into all of those details, but as we continue on through our series of suffering and evil, hopefully we will have a chance to explore those options as well.
September 9th, 2009 on 7:02 am
It seems to me that God being God can can create with any set of rules of the game He,She,Them chooses. If for instance God chooses to set in motion beings called Man and Woman and for God’s eternal purposes allows them a choice that is not God, then the rules are set and the journey begins.
Some are overly focused on God’s Omni Powers as if this Fantastic Universe and all the Beings in it, are all about God proving He,She(Them) is the Big Dog. What a waste of Time, Space and Matter if that is the case.
So Evil is a natural consequence of an morally open system and chaos is introduced by the first stewards Man and Woman. Now opportunity abounds to reconcile, restore, grow and expand just like the universe. This is I think the bible narative starting at Genesis one with an enviorment that has potential but is not perfect. Then on to Revelation’s New Heaven and New Earth where there is still more to do. How boring is perfection anyway nothing to do but be Static. (How Greek)
If as many scientists have said time can be compressed at the speed of light into one eternal moment or eternal now, and God is the I AM with no past and no future. So maybe God can know in this Eternal Now and still be surprised by the system God designed and put in Motion.
I love the fact that nothing is of limits in this Community of Converstaion you have. May the love God grow richly in your community.
Pastor Bill
Pastor Bill
September 11th, 2009 on 3:07 pm
You articulate it all so well. Thanks for this.
October 5th, 2009 on 9:18 pm
Saying that “In other words, if we lived in the perfect world mentioned previously then we would not understand God in the way that we understand God now–the rules of the game, so to speak, would be entirely different.” brings us some questions…
Do you think that we now understand the real being of god? If you do, why do you think that we wouldn’t be able to do it if the world was created different? If god created us on his own image, why do you think that we wouldn’t be able to understand him in his real manner? And if someone says that the world was not created perfect, than this contradicts the bible. I think you should do some gardening instead of speaking about god.
October 7th, 2009 on 10:09 am
To the previous comment:
I did not bring into the conversation God’s being, as the very definition of God’s “being” requires a type of knowledge that I do not have (nor does anyone else) access to. God is only fully known unto God’s self, at least, I suspect few people with an orthodox understanding of God would disagree with that. Your question of whether or not I think we can understand God’s being is irrelevant, as I am not concerned with understanding God’s being in the first place.
If we were to unpack the second question, that is, the nature of what it means to be created in God’s image, then we would have to become a lot more specific and ultimately, create an entirely new post. What exactly is contained in our understanding when we say that we are created in the image of God? Are we talking physically, spiritually, theologically, or, all of the above? Just because someone says that we are created in the image of God, or just because the author of a religious text writes that, does not mean that we interpret its understanding similarly, with consensus, or complete comprehension. I have not made a claim either way, so to critique me for it, is unfair.
Finally, your idea of what it means to contradict the Bible would require another post as well, as I never suggested that God’s perfection was at stake or that the Bible itself speaks (or does not speak) to God’s perfection. To the former point, I only argued that our understanding of what it would mean to exist in a different universe would be so fundamentally different that the language we would use to compare the two would not be the same. How a person conceives of God’s perfection may even allow this type of philosophical and theological speculation.
If you are going to say the Bible says something, then I would encourage you to at least quote the scriptures you have in mind. The burden of proof lies with you, as this particular post was not working specifically with any particular conception of God’s perfection. Again, the real point of this post was to highlight the logical impossibility of comparing a different type of creation by the terms and categories of our understanding of not only this creation, but God’s work in this creation. Whether or not I am even speaking about God (primarily) is important to consider.
I wish I had some pithy comment about gardening, but, since I end up killing most plants I work with, let us hope the same is not true when I speak and write about God.
October 12th, 2009 on 4:40 am
Forgive me for being rude about gardening and speaking about god. Your point has sense, and all the fuss about god can be explained by your point of view. But then, why even bother to think about god or speak about him? Couldn’t it be that the whole history wasted time when talked or thought about being we can’t comprehend? (Actually, that’s exactly what I think, since I don’t believe in him). And the final conclusion, which is maybe off topic, why men are about to be punished for not accepting god which they can not understand? Thus, I still think that bible contradicts itself.